I am very concerned that the review of the Sony did not mention whether the camcorder used DVD-R and DVD-RW mini disks or DVD+R and DVD+RW mini disks. I know that only the Panasonics at this time use DVD-RAM.

It is important for the buyer to realize there are differences! The + and - wars are settling down to an uneasy truce with both media types being available and sold for about the same price, and most new playback equipment (computer and standalone DVD players) handling either one. But it is important that the consumer know which type their camera/recorder uses so they can buy the correct one.

To check to see compatability with your existing equipment, or search for equipment with your options, look at www.dvdrhelp.com/dvdplayers.htm

The DVD-R and DVD+R media are "write once" and thus not reusable. In the rewritable department (media that can be erased fully or partially and used again), the DVD+RW and DVD-RW are similar but with some differences in capabilities and compatability. DVD-RAM continues to be rarer, but much better technical merits. Whereas the +/-RWs are made for 1000 uses, the -RAM flavour is made for 100,000 uses! But compatable computer DVD drives (readers and burners) and standalone DVD appliances (recorders and players) are rare to support the DVD-RAM format.

Well, just some discussion to get this new forum going!

__________________
Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

Those who point out that "most stand alone players" don't play DVD-RAM seem to misunderstand a key point.

The point is this:

Compatibility is not an issue with DVD-RAM devices because the majority of DVD-RAM devices *also* write to DVD-R.

Case in point is the Panasonic VDR-M30 DVD disc camcorder.

The Panasonic DVD camcorder records to *both* DVD-RAM and DVD-R.

So anybody who has a DVD-RAM camcorder by Panasonic and Hitachi can write to mini DVD-R discs *also.*

Here's a good rule of thumb:

IF YOU WISH TO DISTRIBUTE CONTENT TO OTHERS, CHOOSE ***WRITE ONCE*** DVD disc formats.

IF YOU WISH TO BE ABLE TO EDIT YOUR CONTENT RECORDED ON A GIVEN DISC, AND YOU WISH TO USE A DISC OVER AND OVER AGAIN, CHOOSE ***DVD-RAM*** OR ANOTHER RE-WRITABLE FORMAT.

The write-once formats include:

1. DVD-R

2. DVD+R

Don't put too much stock in the hype about DVD-RW or DVD+RW being "more" compatible than DVD-RAM.

Why?

Because the compatibility of DVD-RW and DVD+RW is almost as unreliable as that of DVD-RAM.

The compatiblity of re-writable disc formats - in general - is UNRELIABLE.

Nobody should consider distribution of content on re-writable discs - regardless of whether one flavor of re-writable disc is more compatible than another flavor of re-writable disc.

The fact is:

All re-writable DVD disc formats offer lousy compatibility!

DV MAGAZINE's study revealed DVD-RW and DVD+RW failed to play in a significant number of test DVD players.

The article by DV MAGAZINE recommended:

"Use DVD-R for external testing or final product delivery."

"Because you probably can't control what type of DVD player the end users have, it's best to send them DVD-R discs."

"DVD-RW and DVD+RW are still significantly less compatible than DVD-R, so it is better to be safe than sorry."

"Also, DVD-R media are much cheaper than either DVD-RW or DVD+RW."

I would add that DVD+R offers about the same level of compatibility as DVD-R.

As for DVD-RAM, it competes *very* favorably against DVD-RW and DVD+RW when used for its INTENDED PURPOSE.

DVD-RAM is intended for individuals who want to use the same disc over and over again.

DVD-RAM offers 100,000 re-writes.

DVD+RW offers 1,000 re-writes.

DVD-RW offers 1,000 rewrites.

So DVD-RAM is a more robust re-writable format.

Moreover, DVD-RAM appears to be ahead of its DVD+RW rival in a key product area:

DVD DISC CAMCORDERS

Examples:

1. Panasonic VDR-M30 DVD disc camcorder:

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...rfModel=VDR-M30

2. Hitachi CRD10 DVD disc camcorder:

http://www.hdal.com/products/produc...=1066&parent=51

3. Hitachi DZMV350A:

http://www.hitachi.ca/product_details.asp?PID=275

DVD PLAYER/RECORDERS

As the news release at the following link reveals, the sales of new
generation DVD player/recorders with DVD-RAM capability captured 70% of the market during the first quarter of 2003:

http://www.digitalproducer.com/2003..._16/npd0617.htm

Nearly all of Panasonic's stand alone player models picture at this
link...

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...atGroupId=11059

...will read DVD-RAM discs.

Moreover, Thomson DVD players (GE & RCA brands) will feature DVD-RAM
playback beginning in 2004 as this news release reveals:

http://www.thomson.net/gb/06/c03/030828.htm

In addition, many other manufacturers are marketing player/recorders
with DVD-RAM support.

They include...

1. Toshiba's new D-R1 player/recorder:

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=D-R1

2. Samsung's DVD-R3000 player/recorder:

http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVD...r_DVD_R3000.htm

3. JVC's new DR-M1:

http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/dvd/dr-m1/

There are no camcorders based on the DVD+RW format, to my knowledge.

Since DVD-RAM offers 100,000 re-writes, it seemed to be the better choice for me than the DVD-RW (1,000 re-writes) offered by the Sony model.

Since I can extract MPEG from a DVD-RAM, edit the video, and then re-burn to a DVD-R disc with MENUS, DVD-RAM poses no compatibility issue for me.

I've written a tutorial about how to capture video recorded on DVD-RAM discs:

http://www.jonesgroup.net/vdrm30stepone.htm

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

I heartily agree with much of your information. Alas, there is a very large very strong outside force at play... and it is NOT "technical merit". That is Microsoft and the 57 companies in the + camp who are hijacking the DVD writing standard (DVDforum alliance of hundreds of companies whose "-" format was selected to be the standard) by going ahead and pushing their own "minority" standard but using their out-of-proportion industry influence to make DVD+ exist anyway.

So, there are great inducements (deals, inducements, subsidies, and license agreements) to companies to join the + camp and forsake DVD- and specifically the DVD-RAM format.

I am very glad that some manufactures are going ahead and are supporting (or will support) DVD-RAM. But it still is rarer and this is the only "flaw" to using it more. I think if more computer DVD READERS supported DVD-RAM, that would help establish it. But though I don't like it, the fact exists that most DVD readers and writers today don't handle DVD-RAM whereas many readers will handle DVD-RW and DVD+RW and support is guaranteed for DVD+RW on Windows in the future which will push computer manufactures to specify DVD+ compatable bundled readers and writers.

Distribution should be made with DVD-R, or DVD+R as an alternate. But for in home or in house work, rewriteable media robustness and compatability is a significant factor. I held off for the IOMega Super-Multi DVD+/-,-RAM recorder because I want to have DVD+RW for Microsoft compatability and the superior DVD-RAM for my own use. (Not that I want Microsoft to be pushing DVD+RW, but I realize that the facts of life of corporate dirty-dealing will insure that if I can't use it, I'll be handicapped in the future.)

__________________
Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

Just to summarize the key points in my previous post...

1. DVD-RAM enjoyed a 70% market share (over DVD+RW) among sales of stand alone DVD player/recorders in the first quarter of 2003:

http://www.digitalproducer.com/2003..._16/npd0617.htm

So DVD-RAM clearly seems to be winning in the stand alone DVD player/recorder category.

2. Of the consumer-level camcorders that currently are on the market, two out of three manufacturers currently support DVD-RAM (and DVD-R) as opposed to DVD-RW (and DVD-R).

- Panasonic (DVD-RAM/DVD-R):

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...rfModel=VDR-M30

- Hitachi (DVD-RAM/DVD-R):

http://www.hitachi.ca/product_details.asp?PID=275

- Sony (DVD-RW/DVD-R)

So DVD-RAM clearly appears to be winning the DVD camcorder category.

3. There are *NO* camcorders based on the DVD+RW format.

Moreover, I know of no plans by any manufacturer to market a camcorder based on the DVD+RW format.

4. The *only* professional-level camera on the market based on *current* DVD formats is from Hitachi and it is based on DVD-RAM:

http://www.hdal.com/products/produc...=1066&parent=51

5. The number of stand alone DVD players that will play DVD-RAM discs is *increasing* and not decreasing:

http://www.thomson.net/gb/06/c03/030828.htm

To the above points, I would add the following commentary:

Sony's decision to *NOT* market a DVD+RW camcorder was very significant - in my view.

Instead, Sony - a DVD+RW format backer - chose the DVD-RW format.

As you know, the DVD FORUM has approved the following formats:

1. DVD-R
2. DVD-RW
3. DVD-RAM

So Sony's decision - in my view - is a nod in the direction of adopting a format *approved* by the DVD Forum.

You will note the DVD Forum's Web page emphatically states that organization does not consider the DVD+RW or DVD+R formats to be "approved formats."

http://www.dvdforum.com

Sure - the DVD+RW and DVD+R formats have the backing of their own organization.

But Sony's decision seems to be the most recent *tilt* in the direction of adopting a camcorder format approved by the DVD Forum instead of adopting a camcorder format approved by the DVD+RW Alliance.

Therefore, I don't see how anybody can predict with absolute certainty that *ANY* of the re-writable formats - in their existing offerings - will *WIN.*

Why?

DVD+RW format has failed to achieve total saturation.

DVD-RAM format - although it has achieved some impressive benchmarks - has also failed to achieve total saturation.

BLUE LASER is just around the corner.

When BLUE LASER hits the market - everything changes all over again.

Sony is beginning to introduce some professional-level XDCAM cameras based on Blue Laser technology.

I'd like to see CamcorderInfo.com get one of those and test it!

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Okay... I just bought this baby today. I can already see a couple of things I don't like. One, you have to turn the dial to switch from filming video to taking a still. I have a Sony Cybershot 3.2 pixel for stills, but gee, it would be nice to have a fairly decent still capability so I don't have to drag to pieces of equipment. 2nd, when you do snap a still it's slow on the shutter.. my subjects eyes close half the time before the shutter closes.

Am I reading the reviews correctly too, that the RAM discs are going to make the RW and R discs obsolete?

I'm wondering now if I should have gone with the Hitachi?

Please give me some feedback. If I should have gone with the Hitachi, is there anyway that you can return electronics like this under the reason that it wasn't what you wanted? I wouldn't assume electronics like this can be returned as easily as taking back a pair of ugly pants.

I've read review after review and the more I read, the more confused I become.

I went with the DVD cam because I honestly didn't want to add a read/write dvd player to my PC...and honestly don't want to have to download video, edit and then burn. I'd like to just plop the disk in and watch it on the dvd player/tv lousy shooting and all. Thats part of the beauty of home video in my opinion.

Thanks for any feedback, advice, etc... great forum.

-Stefan

DVD-RAM won't make DVD-R or DVD-RW obsolete because the purpose of DVD-RAM is entirely different.

If you want to record video to a DVD disc and just to be able to plop it into any player, then use a DVD-R mini DVD disc.

In that respect, **all** of the DVD disc camcorder models currently on the market support DVD-R mini DVD disc recording.

So if you bought the Sony for that reason, you did OK.

(The Hitachi and Panasonic DVD disc camcorders will also record to DVD-R - just like the Sony.)

The disadvantage of DVD-R is that you can only record to it *ONCE.*

DVD-R offers the user fewer *EDIT* options as well.

The Hitachi and the Panasonic camcorders offer the DVD-RAM capability as a nice extra for individuals who have DVD-RAM drives in their computers or who already have stand alone player/recorders that read DVD-RAM discs.

DVD-RAM allows for 100,000 re-writes.

It features more robust editing capability.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

I don't know whether my HP Compaq supports DVD-RAM, if it does I wish I'd bought the Hitachi instead of the Sony camcorder because it was $200 cheaper in the shop and uses a seperate Smart Media card for still pictures.

I had it at home and returned it when I found out you cannot record onto DVD-RW (I didn't know what DVD-RAM was)!!

Having said that I cannot see myself, or many other people, using either DVD-RW or DVD-RAM for 1,000 times never mind 10,000 times without scratching it or losing it or corrupting it in some way. In this regard I think the DVD-RAM is overspecified. What's the cost difference? DVD-RW was UD$12 in the shop but I'm sure you can get it cheaper.

Recording onto mini DVD-R disks is a very expensive way to take home movies. I don't see the point, it's very simple to burn onto a normal CD as a VCD or SVCD so you do not need a DVD burner.

Garry

Computer drives that support DVD-RAM are inexpensive.

The Panasonic SW-9582, for example, has a $132 price tag:

http://avlogic.com/product.cgi?code=18030141

The LG GSA-4040BI burns to all formats and is selling for $155:

http://store.yahoo.com/ourstore-2000/lggmmudrwrto.html

The Panasonic SW-9572 external drive uses Firewire/USB and sells for $299:

http://store.yahoo.com/ourstore-2000/paswexfi20dr.html

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net